3. Trans Rights: it's like history repeating itself

As a white cis man I learned so much by talking to Christopher.

Christopher works for Manchester Pride and is an author on a mission to ensure LGBTQ+ liberation is something everyone can enjoy.

Christopher and I both gravitated to Manchester for its inclusive vibes. Whereas I felt living in Cornwall was like living in a bubble, Christopher heard of the work Manchester Pride do in Canada. It doesn't just have a ripple effect in Manchester or the UK, but globally.

He spoke about how people talk about trans people now like they did about gay men in the 1980's. They then mention how supporting trans rights doesn't just have a positive impact for trans people, but for all people.

That was the key message that I took away, a society with love for all people is a better place to live in.

Transphobic hate by the government and media doesn't just take away rights for trans people, but laws they have put in place impact ALL children, young people and adults.

If you are wondering how, you will need to tune in and listen.

But it's important that we don't just make change fir the few, but also for the many.

Whether for trans people or disabled people, everyone should be considered when we work to make positive change.

Everyone should be in our thoughts with every change and every should be allowed a voice.

You can look at the great work of Manchester Pride on their website

Home – Manchester Pride

You could be like one of the 44,600 people who follow them on instagram or Tik Tok

Manchester Pride (@manchesterpride) • Instagram photos and videos

Manchester Pride (@manchesterpride) | TikTok

Christopher can be found on LinkedIN

Dr. Christopher Owen | LinkedIn

Finally there is the Manchester Prides All Equals Charter website too

All Equals Charter – Manchester Pride

Thank you for listening

Transcript

Chistopher: 0:00

Hey, I'm Christopher.

0:01

And this is overcoming adversity, real stories, real people, real life. I'm your host, Scott Whitney, and every two weeks, I'll be bringing you an interview with someone who's faced overcome, battled adversity. Now, please, please, please subscribe to our podcast. Give us a rating, share it with your friends. It will help us be more visible and help more people. So, let's get back to the interview.

Chistopher: 0:38

I'm the inclusivity development manager for Manchester Pride. I have a PhD in intersectional systemic oppression and I use that expertise as a consultant now working with businesses and organizations to support them with their intersectional LGBTQ plus inclusion work through a program we have here at Manchester Pride called the All Equals Charter.

Scott: 0:58

Thank you for coming along, Christopher. So, I know that we wanted to speak about, trans rights, et cetera, today, and there's been a lot of adversity in and around that. Would you mind kind of, painting the picture for our listeners, please?

Chistopher: 1:12

Yeah, absolutely. I want to paint the picture by taking us a little bit back in time and starting off by reminding, I guess, our communities that the UK used to be the number one most LGBTQ plus inclusive country in all of Europe. But this past year, when the rankings were released for the year, we hit number 17. We've dropped quite a great deal and the key reason for that, and you can go online, this is, ranked by the United Nations, the key reason for it being, how we treat our trans communities. The way that the sort of shape of our access to trans healthcare, the rise in, which is really quite poor, the, nature of trans rights and the direction that trans rights are going in. The guidance being released by our government, the huge spike in hate crimes, all of these things have meant that, we've dropped down to 17th place and that's, that's really quite shocking, and I think it's really important that hear what's going on here. The story of what is life like for trans communities today. So when we look at the history of harm against, for example, gay men, right, let's take gay men as an example, right? Because a lot of people like to think that, you know, we've got equal marriage. Now the fight for gay rights is over. We're good now. but let's look at that. Actually, like, first of all, that's not true, but let's look at that history. What did that journey look like? And when we see the way that people used to speak about gay men, the conversation that went on about gay men, it was usually, that gay identities were illegitimate. That somebody who said that they were gay they were incorrect in some form. Now they might be incorrect because they're confused or they're going through a phase or maybe they're mentally ill. So being gay used to be considered a mental illness, back not even that long ago the alternative perspective was that gay men were perverted, that we were some sort of perverse, you know, dangerous sort of, insidious group trying to spread HIV to other people or recruit children. And like, that was the language especially in like the eighties and nineties And we're actually seeing that exact same kind of idea around trans people today, especially trans women, but all trans communities today, the same sort of language. So about a year ago, maybe two years ago, we used to average about. 34 anti trans stories in mainstream media, in the news, per year. Now we're seeing 34 anti trans stories in the media per month And the language is often the same that of what it used to be about gay men, that trans people's identities, first and foremost, aren't real, that they're not legitimate, that trans women, you know, are just, Men in dresses, and so on and so forth, and that they're predatory men trying to get into women's spaces and hurt cis women. That's a lot of that, that language that they're not legitimate identities, that they're faking it, that they're confused, that they're mentally ill, that there's something wrong with them. or that they're dangerous hugely dangerous. And there's also a huge conversation around how trans people and supporting trans people is dangerous for children. And so the result of that, the consequences of this, this conversation, this language is actually hugely impactful and is causing a huge amount of adversity and harm for trans communities right now. So a key thing that I think is really important for people to know about that they probably don't know about is that trans young people, Their access to healthcare has been hugely limited and shaped recently, so they've completely, like, they're closing down the gender identity services that support trans young people, and they're changing the laws around accessing healthcare needs for trans young people. An example of that is something called puberty blockers. Now, puberty blockers are something that we give to young people who need to delay their puberty for whatever reason. And for trans young people, this means that, for example, a trans man wouldn't then develop breasts. Right? And so he would then later on in life, never need to get surgery to remove those breasts because he never developed them in the first place. And so it actually has a huge physical benefits for those trans young people, but it also has huge psychological benefits. When we see a huge increase in mental well being for trans young people, when they're given puberty blockers, and when they're supported by their friends, their family, and their teachers. Instead, we've made it basically illegal and really impossible for young people to get puberty blockers before the age of 16. Well, by then it's too late. By then they've already started to develop. By then it doesn't really work anymore. and the consequence of that is that we're seeing a huge spike in mental illness amongst trans young people. But it also means that other young people who aren't trans who needed puberty blockers can't get them either. So for example, we used to also provide puberty blockers to precocious cis girls. So that's cisgender girls. and by that I mean girls who were assigned female at birth who identify as girls and who start their puberty really early. So you might have an eight year old girl who starts menstruating and she's got period cramps and it's really intense and it's, it's just emotionally too difficult and physically too difficult for her at that age. Give her puberty blockers. She's safe. She's fine. We take her off the puberty blockers, when she's a little bit older and she can start menstruating at the same time as her peers. I mean, it's much like psychologically and emotionally healthier for her. She now can't get those puberty blockers because of anti trans legislation. so there's been a real impact, not just for trans kids, for cis kids as well. and then just very recently, the government has released, some guidance to schools on how they should approach trans kids. So for example, if a student wants to change the pronouns that people use to refer to them, teachers have to actually like, they've been given the advice to not do that, and to get permission from the parents first. Outing that young person to their parents, which then puts that young person at significant risk of domestic violence, and even homelessness. In fact, we see that one quarter, 25 percent of all trans people have experienced homelessness. The consequences are going to be astronomical. All of the government guidance released to schools on how they should treat trans young people goes exactly against that. Best practice when it comes to how to support young people's autonomy and voice and support young people. And actually some of it breaks Equality law and, and un international human rights law and how we should treat children. So that's just what's happening to, to kids, right? But let's, if we look at some, I'm going to read out some statistics on sort of the big picture, what the consequence has been for the trans community. so big consequence results have been transphobic hate crimes have risen by 186 percent in the last five years, 28 percent of trans people have survived domestic abuse and violence. 83 percent of trans youth have experienced bullying, 44 percent of trans people have to hide their identity as a means to protect themselves. That's almost half, you know, right? Like a quarter of trans people have experienced homelessness, like I said, a quarter of trans people experience discrimination when trying to buy or rent a home, and then 48%, almost half of trans people have attempted death by suicide, with 84 percent having considered it. Those are strikingly scary numbers. And so, what are we, like, doing about it? What's going on about it? The people who are most responsible for supporting trans communities are the Equality and Human Rights Commission. So they are something, the, Equality and Human Rights Commission, or the EHRC, are like a body within the country. They're independent from the government, but they're responsible for making sure that the government protects, you know, human rights and the equalities of our population. And they do that under the banner of the United Nations. So they're sort of like a accredited by the United Nations and every UN country. It's supposed to have an equivalent. They're sort of our, Equality watchdog, if that makes sense. their guidance and feedback to the government has been consistently transphobic over the last few years, providing, recommendations that directly harm trans communities, including things like barring trans people from accessing public toilets, and school advice, like the one I've just shared with you, things similar to that. the result of that is that somebody from the United Nations came and did an independent review of the United Nations, of the EHRC. And their response was that the EHRC's transphobia was like wholly, and I quote, wholly unbecoming of a UN level equalities watchdog. And now the EHRC is under investigation, and they might lose their UN status. And like that's a good consequence on them for the way that they've been treating trans communities. But actually for the, for all of us here in the UK, whether you're trans or not, it means that our Equality is watchdog in this country. The people most responsible for protecting our protected characteristics might lose their status within the United Nations to support Equality. We might, we might all suffer the consequences of not having an equal a proper UN accredited equalities watchdog anymore. That's the consequence and it's specifically because of their transphobia. That's the level of hate that's going on in this country right now against trans communities. and so like, and we're seeing it like, really scary things from our federal, like, national government. the Scottish government did a bill to better support trans communities, and the UK government blocked that bill. And they said that that bill, like, you know, wasn't robust enough, except it was the most consulted on, and like, double checked and re checked bill in all of Scottish history. and, but, but still the UK government blocked that bill from going in to support trans communities from like self identifying, with their gender identity and supporting, you know, trans inclusion that actually meets. The basic standard of other countries in Europe, not doing actually anything radical or new. other things that have happened is government have released, advice saying that, they want all new buildings being built in the UK to have gender exclusive toilets, no more gender neutral toilets, no more gender inclusive toilets in all new buildings in the UK, right? So where are non binary people supposed to go pee? What's the plan there, right? The plan is that non binary people aren't supposed to exist. That they're not allowed to exist. And that sounds really, like, hyperbolic. It sounds like I'm exaggerating. That I'm, you know, really freaking out here. But, the frank fact of the matter is is that recently at the Tory party conference, which was only a few months ago, our health secretary announced plans to ban trans people from gender specific hospital wards. So if a trans woman needs to have surgery for whatever reason and she needs to have surgery you know, in a gender specific ward, she won't be allowed in because she's trans, right? Now, we're already seeing health issues in the trans community. We're already seeing trans people not getting the health care support that they need. and now they're going to be denied access to NHS wards, right? So when I say like, There's a history of, people insisting that gay men's identities aren't legitimate and that gay men don't exist and shouldn't exist and that, right, we also see that with lesbians. We also see that with bisexual communities. We also see that with asexual communities. We've always seen that in our histories, but we can remember the conversations, I think, around HIV and AIDS and around the 80s and 90s and is gay marriage a healthy marriage and everything else. We remember those conversations. The conversations are happening again for trans communities specifically. They're still going on, but they're shaped very directly, not just to say trans identities don't exist, but very clearly with an agenda to eradicate and erase and exclude trans people from every public sphere, from public schools and children's spaces to NHS wards. That's the adversity facing the trans community today.

Scott: 13:42

Some of those things, like you said, some very striking statistics there. Some, some very sort of scary things. And one of the things you mentioned was, was toilets. And as someone who's a wheelchair user, disabled, What you can almost, what I can almost see are potentially, trans people maybe using the disabled toilets. And then, that then creates almost a divide between disabled people and trans people because the disabled people might think, Well, hang on, that toilet's meant for us, but the trans person has nowhere to to go and feel safe.

Chistopher: 14:27

Is that right? That's right. And this is actually how, sort of our oppressors win, is that they pit marginalized communities against each other. So you're absolutely right that disabled and trans communities will be pitted against each other when it comes to toilet access, but cis women and trans communities are currently being pitted against each other when it comes to women's only spaces, whether it be NHS wards or domestic abuse services or whatever else. And the key reason that communities are pitted against each other is so that we blame one another when we fight one another, rather than collaborating and working together against the people who are causing this issue. We don't look at, oh, well, you're the one who made this happen. We look at, you're the one who's in my way, right? It's sort of the path of least resistance. So when we talk about, say, women's only spaces, for example, and domestic abuse, let's talk about domestic abuse services, for example. Right? A hugely important service and anybody who's a survivor of domestic abuse or is currently experiencing and is yet to survive domestic abuse, is, needs those spaces and needs those resources. But those resources are few and far between. There's actually not very many of them anymore. The reason for that isn't because trans people have come in and invaded those spaces. The reason is austerity measures have resulted in cuts and actually it's the national government who is responsible for there being less domestic abuse services, right? It is the national government who is responsible for the fact that there is less services to support disabled communities, right? And then, you know, these services, they, they tend to support multiple communities. In general, when multiple people come to access what's left, we're fighting over scraps. We're fighting over the, the, scarce resources, but that scarcity is fabricated. Our government chose to have that scarcity, and they chose it so that they could achieve their agenda. where we're so busy fighting one another that we're not fighting them and then they get to pass bills that give, you know, handouts to their friends and improve, improve, improve their financial position rather than improving the quality of life for all marginalized communities.

Scott: 16:34

I'm talking about sort of politics and government, it's not something like, it's not a topic I like to kind of go into on the podcast, but actually I think if we avoid it, we're avoiding almost a massive, massive issue. And from my perspective, like, it doesn't matter who anyone is, respect should be given to everyone. And the government and our media. are ones that are showing disrespect. And because of that, instead of it supporting Equality and inclusion with a lot of people, it's actually encouraging exclusion,

Chistopher: 17:20

isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And I think The thing that we need most right now is to not be then like, not to avoid the conversation about the government, not to avoid the conversation about, politics, even though everyone hates talking about politics and like I'm with you there, but actually we desperately need people to vote in this year's general election. We need people to show up for that because people are dying. Like, like, it's not like. You know, trans communities are having a rough go. No, they're dying, right? They're losing their basic human rights. They're losing their health care, right? Of all things like that, we can't sit back and say, Oh, like, you know, things are rough, but we'll get through like, well, we'll make it, we'll survive. We have to say we need to be proactive about this. We need to be active. We need to vote. We need to hold our legislators and our government accountable. We need to be paying attention and saying like, how, how dare you get to this point? How dare you do these things? and like, and you're right, it's also the media. We can't just. You're thinking about the one tier. Not everything is the fault of the government. There's other things going on. But the, like, the key thing that we're going to need is, and this is a very, this is not a new idea, but it's called class consciousness. It is the idea that we are conscious of where we sit in our society and who our friends are and who our enemies are, right? So you and I, we can say like, you know, you're a wheelchair user, I'm trans, right? We both benefit from having. better toilets in public spaces, right? We both want that, in our public spaces, in our shopping centers, in our museums, in our art galleries, in our schools, in our hospitals, in our office buildings, in our restaurants. We want better toilets for everybody, right? So you and I, even though we might be fighting for different kinds of toilets. We can fight together. We can collaborate on that. We can work together towards that movement. And I don't think our communities are going to overcome the systems of oppression that are harming us until we start seeing who our friends are, seeing who our collaborators are, even if they're different from us. And rather than me looking at you and going, You and I have to compete for the same toilet and you and I have to fight each other for this. We go, no, no, no, you and I want the same thing. Let's fight the people responsible.

Scott: 19:41

definitely. you know, like, like you mentioned 86 percent increase in hate crimes and, and 28 percent survivors of domestic violence. But whichever way you look at that, there is, there is nothing good about. Those statistics at all and, and when you look at survivors of domestic violence, we've got to remember there are people that haven't survived domestic violence as well. You also touched earlier about mental wellbeing. If hate crime goes up, so, domestic violence is increasing.

Chistopher: 20:24

Even if you haven't experienced that, if you're part. of a community that is, it still impacts and affects your mental well being. You, you should be outraged, right? Like, I'm, I'm a firm believer that, it, the community impacts your mental health. If your community is suffering, you're suffering, because you're not living in a community that is joyful, that is thriving, right? Like, when I walk down the street and I see People who are sick, people who are experiencing homelessness. When I talk to my colleagues and we're all struggling with the cost of living crisis, when we think about, we flip on the news and we see, you know, things about climate change, and you know, think about the world ending. Nobody's happy, nobody's doing well, but if we lived in a world that was focused on sustainability and happiness and the well being of our population, I think we'd all stand to benefit. Even if you're, you know, a white, cis, straight, non disabled man, right? Like, and you, you might be thinking, like, none of this conversation about marginalized communities is, is, has anything to do with me. Wouldn't you like to live in a society where you know that? Your colleagues aren't gonna get hate crimed and your friends can walk home safe and you know, like we can all reap the benefits of this world. And actually resources are abundant, you know, and you're not going into the grocery store counting your pennies and making sure that you can afford vegetables. This week you're, you're going in and. And thriving like don't we all want that because we can have it. We can. We can actually achieve that. But in order for us to achieve that, we have to pick each other first. That's what we have to do.

Scott: 22:08

We're both based in the same city. We're both based in Manchester. People always ask me why I moved to Manchester and it was because I wanted to be in a place where kind of diversity was celebrated, where I would meet people who I wouldn't meet where I was living before and you're hugely involved With Manchester Pride. So how has Manchester Pride sort of developed over the last sort of five or so years? And what's sort of happening within Manchester Pride at the moment?

Chistopher: 22:48

Yeah, thank you so much for that question. So like you, I also moved to Manchester for the diversity. I'm originally Canadian, if you're wondering about my accent. And I moved to Manchester because I knew about Manchester Pride, because that's the global scale that Manchester Pride has. I knew it was going to be a queer friendly city, and I knew I would be safe here, in Manchester. and then I moved here, and I learned about our historic, feminist movement here, and our historic labor movement here, and just the, the history of queer activism in this city is actually quite extensive, and, now I'm very proudly Mancunian, and I'm here to stay. I'm here for But Manchester Pride, like, Has has has developed in the last few years and has developed in a really powerful direction. I think something that people need to understand about Manchester Pride is that we are not an event in the summer. Manchester Pride is a charity that runs all year round. but what Pride is isn't just a festival. What Pride is, is a global social movement. It is a global queer liberation movement. And it has always been, at its core, intersectional. So by that I mean that queer people of color, queer women, queer disabled people, and so on and so forth, have almost primarily been at the forefront of this movement, and have really driven the direction of this movement. And very sadly, More recently, Pride has become something that's a bit of a white boys club that, you know, really is focusing on just supporting the white gay man and not really thinking about anybody else in the community. And so here at Manchester Pride, we are looking and we are working hard to be leaders in reshaping the global Pride movement. So our CEO, Mark Fletcher, he is the only queer person of color who is a CEO and a leader. of an LGBTQ plus charity here in Manchester, and I believe he's the only queer person of colour who's the CEO of a city based pride in all of the UK. So we have UK Black Pride, but that's a little bit different of city based prides, he's the only, as I believe it, he's the only ceo and that's something that we're really, really quite proud of, of the work that he does as a voice, for intersectional liberation. So Mark introduced the black and brown stripes into the UK. We were the first, pride in the UK, to have the black and brown stripes on the pride flag. And now we use the progress by flag, which has the Chevron with the trans colors as well. And now everybody in the UK uses that. But what people don't remember is it was Mark Fletcher who brought that into the UK. It was Manchester Pride that introduced that to the UK. We're really driving intersectional liberation here at Manchester Pride. So our last, Manchester Pride festival, was one of our most intersectional festivals. So for example, I just pull up these numbers. the last Manchester Pride Festival, Manchester Pride 2023, just over half of our performers were women. Over half of them were people of colour. Roughly half were trans and non binary and about 35 percent were performers, who are disabled. and so like those numbers. are actually way higher than the standard in the festival industry for sure, but also in other prides. So we're really pushing to make sure that our intersectional communities are platformed and are listened to and one of the ways that we're supporting our intersectional communities is in the project that I deliver. So I mentioned at the beginning of our chat that I deliver something called the All Equals Charter, and the All Equals Charter is a workplace inclusion accreditation program. So, trans people and marginalized people are having a really hard time in workplaces. They're not coming out at work. They don't feel safe at work. They're facing a lot of discrimination in the workplace, and a lot of workplace policies and procedures. don't properly protect trans and non binary people. and I can give you actually a really easy example of that. So for example, a lot of workplaces will have a policy that says that you can't bully or you can't harass, right? Like that's the law, actually, the Equality laws is you can't do those things. But then how do we spot what is bullying or what is harassment? How do we clock what that is, what that looks like, right? So if somebody, says, If somebody says to, a black British person, where are you from? And the black British person says, Oh, I'm from London. And they say, no, no, no. Where are you really from? Right? That idea that they've, like, immigrated from somewhere. We would recognize that, I think, a lot, a lot of people would recognize that as, like, bullying. That's a microaggression. That's a racist microaggression. I would hope that a lot of people have, like, figured out by now that that's not acceptable. What we might not clock is asking a man if he's got a girlfriend or a wife. Is that bullying? Is that harassment? Not really. There's nothing hateful there. There's nothing, there's no microaggression there. There's nothing targeted there. There's no implication there that there's anything negative about, about any of that. But what it does do is it erases the opportunity for him to have a boyfriend or a husband, or to be asexual and not be dating anybody. It erases the opportunity for him to be, right? Now that's, that's not actually covered then by workplace policies. It's not actually covered by what it means to be inclusive. And so we work with organizations to make sure that they understand, actually, what are the root causes of discrimination? What are the root causes of exclusion, of bullying, of harassment? And then we teach them about oppression, we teach them about normativity and erasure, and we talk to them about the, like, practical logistics of actually supporting their LGBTQ plus staff. And a lot of organizations come to us and say, We don't know how to support trans staff. We don't know what to do with that. So we provide things like template policies on, how to support staff transitioning in the workplace. So they come in, they tell you their name is Mark. And then a few months later, you hire them, everything gets started. You get them a name badge, everything, a new email for the work, everything else. And then six months later, they say, actually, I want to go by Mary. and I'm going to start, you know, a process of transition. What do you do? What's the process? How do you handle that? Right? What's the GDPR reliance? Like, what's the, what's the, the processes for changing their name badge, for telling the rest of the staff, for giving them time off for their surgeries, everything else? What do you do? So, we, we work with companies to make sure that they know. How to support trans communities, and then we make sure it's intersectional. We make sure that they're thinking about queer people of color, queer disabled people. So we will check for things like the accessibility of their buildings. We will check to make sure that they have, you know, accessible toilets and things like that and really just make sure that they are, they are covering their bases in an intersectional way and really supporting their trans communities and their disabled communities and their communities who are people of color and so on and so on and so on. And so like, that's part of the work that we're doing at Manchester Pride. We also have a a grants program, to support our intersectional communities. And we do something called community sessions, which is once a month we put on an event to platform our grassroots organizers from intersectional communities. We also have youth pride. We do a variety of different things. We release resources on our website. We have a lot of resources to support our HIV positive community. There's, there's loads going on here, but really what Manchester Pride is doing is we have said we're not just an event in the summer, we are a global, intersectional, queer liberation movement, we are a charity that operates all year round, and we're going to be supporting our intersectional communities in every facet of their lives that we can, as authentically and as meaningfully as we can.

Scott: 30:22

Excellent. And a lot of people will be listening to that will be going right now. How do we get in contact? And we will put details in the show notes. So in the description. So if anyone needs to get in contact with Christopher Manchester Pride, the details will all be in there. So it's nice and simple for you to do. Now, right at the beginning, you mentioned about anti trans stories, 34 in a year and now 34 in a month,

Chistopher: 30:54

which Oh, did I say 34 in a month? It's 34 per day. Oh, wow. Yeah. got that stat wrong. We have 34 anti trans stories in our media every single day.

Scott: 31:05

Wow. So can you, can you give examples of a couple of the types of anti trans stories that that are appearing in our media.

Chistopher: 31:18

Yeah, so I, I, I'm not going to read out headlines for you. I'm not going to do that because I don't want to see that. I think that's really emotionally difficult for me. But the kinds of things that you will see will be things about, you know, like, conversations around trans people and should they be allowed in public toilets. We get a lot of fake news. but a key thing actually that's worth mentioning is trans people in sport. So a lot of sporting bodies will, are banning trans people from participating in sports. So, one of the things that happened was a trans woman won the like, and forgive me I can't remember her name, I'd have to stop and Google all of it, but a trans woman won, like a, she broke a record for swimming. And then there was an uproar, like furious, because the assumption is that because she's a trans woman, she was assigned male at birth, so she must have more muscles and have a great advantage over cis women. And so her success wasn't lauded as like a great thing to celebrate, it was like, it is like an injustice against cis women, right? Only a few months later, a cis woman broke that record, right? Like, like broke that, that, that new record set by a trans woman. Nobody's talking about it anymore. Nobody cares. Nobody's thinking about like, Oh, that trans woman, I guess she wasn't, you know, had an unfair advantage. and one of the things that like, it's. is forgotten about when we talk about trans people in sport is that like a lot like trans people go through hormone therapy, right, in order to compete in those categories, and the whole point of going through hormone therapy is to change your body. Right. So trans women who have been on estrogen for a long time, their bone density changes and their muscles. Get smaller and change and they they take on, you know, a different shape and that's the whole idea. That's why people do it. Right. So she doesn't have an unfair advantage. She doesn't isn't stronger or more powerful or anything else. She's she's brought herself to the same sort of level. And that's the point. And we see like, but we see in our media, like examples of headlines where it's just like, We shouldn't have trans women in sport. It's unfair, it's a harmful, you know, and in all of this discourse, but actually it's not backed up by like any science or any evidence or the larger context or the larger picture. And that's led to like some really weird things. So, for example, trans women are being banned from chess, and I just really wanna understand how being trans gives you an unfair advantage. at chess, because what it implies is that we're still seeing trans women as men. That's what, right, because we're delegitimizing these identities. So if you're banning trans women from chess, what you're then implying is that men are smarter or more logical or better at strategy than women. Is that, is that what we're implying? Because all women should be deeply offended by that obvious misogyny, right? Like, so like, but the conversation is always, trans women are dangerous, they're harmful, they're secretly men, and they're out to reap the benefits and steal opportunities from cis women. But actually, there's no real like evidence and that's not really like fair.

Scott: 34:26

It's, it's really interesting. Before we started recording, I said to Christopher, if I make any mistakes naively with language and things to, to pick me up on it and. And I was going to, if I did, I was going to keep those mistakes in, so people listening now would be able to learn from it as now, so you'd be able to learn just as well as I could. Now, when it comes to, to sports and trans women, where It's physical, like swimming, athletics, et cetera. I've learned a lot from what you've said there, because the chess thing, yeah, that's just completely kind of Ridiculous. Ridiculous, yeah, you're right. But I didn't appreciate the sort of the hormones, et cetera. And I was incorrectly under the impression that there was an advantage. So I'm really, really grateful and thankful that you shared that as an example. because a lot of that, you know, we learn a lot from the media and, you know, even I say all the time, what's in the media isn't always true. And, you know, it's, it's, it's a great learning point for me. So thank you for,

Chistopher: 35:48

for sharing

Scott: 35:50

that.

Chistopher: 35:50

Well, Scott. I think. I think, sorry, but thank you so much. I think that actually you admitting that you learned something, I think we, that may be a really important step for, for trans liberation is everybody needs to sort of, everybody needs to stop and say, I think I probably have something to learn here. Cause one of the arguments against trans inclusion is people will say, well, it's biology 101. Penis means man, vagina means women, end of story. And actually let's look at biology 201 or 301. What do we actually know about gender and sex? And if everybody can stop and say, Actually, my understanding of gender and sex is really, really basic, and I think I need to deepen my knowledge. Then we can start learning about intersex people, and we can start learning about gender fluidity, and we can start learning about the long feminist history that worked to distinguish biological sex from gender identity, and that these are two very different things, and that actually psychology studies, and like neurology studies have proven that. And like, just taking the time to go. I think I might need to learn something here. I think I might not actually understand gender identity. I thought I did, but actually, I don't. And like, that's okay. Like, nobody taught you. We weren't taught. We weren't taught about trans identities and how it actually works. And as soon as we can start admitting to ourselves, I have something to learn here. And then we go and do our homework. I think we'll all make a lot of progress.

Scott: 37:09

Yeah, I find, you know, going out as a, as a wheelchair user, as a, as a disabled person, I, you know, I feel like excluding from a lot of places and where I kind of will, if I want to go somewhere new and I'm sort of navigating somewhere new, if I see somewhere where it says, queer friendly, that's somewhere where I think I will be accepted. And there's a, there's a lot of places in Manchester where I will gravitate towards

Chistopher: 37:43

because of that. Yeah, and I think like, there's, there's, I have two, two minds about that, I guess, Scott. One is, supporting one marginalised community usually has the effect of supporting multiple marginalised communities. That if you write workplace policies and procedures, or you create initiatives to support workplace culture, that supports You know, our disabled communities are queer communities. It will invariably support the other in some but the risk is that not everybody thinks intersectionally. And so, for example, we do have, loads of queer venues and spaces and events that aren't accessible, that aren't disability friendly, that they don't have all kinds of amenities needed to actually support the community. Even just get you through the door, right? Like, the basics. And I think that's part of the work that Manchester Pride is doing. It's sort of looking at our own community and saying, No, we have some work to do. It's not, like, there is racism in the LGBTQ plus community. And, like, that's actually a really big issue here in Manchester. And there is ableism in the LGBTQ plus community, and we are working hard to fight that. and we still have lots of growth to do as a charity. But we're, we're having those conversations and we are pushing those agendas forward. So yes. Working towards supporting one community has positive consequences for others, but we've got to be intentional, I think, in our intersectional approach. Otherwise, you can have a safe space for one group that still excludes others.

Scott: 39:15

And then finally, you said there's so much that you do with businesses and things. Have you got any sort of final tips for workplaces to be more

Chistopher: 39:27

inclusive? Yeah, so I'm gonna get I'm gonna be a little bit shameless for a second and say my first tip is to join the all equals charter because actually it does take a bit of a bespoke approach. It does take having some somebody come in who's unbiased, who's friendly and non judgmental, but is is critical and and helps you identify and What you need to do because I don't see it as a list of tick boxes. Do this. Do this to this. You'll be good. I see it as a journey. And so let's figure out where you're at in your journey and let's celebrate your wins and identify what you're good at and what you have resources and capacity and skills for and then let's figure out what your next step on the journey is and help you develop a really bespoke action plan that will get you to that next step. So that I think is a first key thing. And, and, and even just having a meeting with me, like, if you go to manchesterpride. com and check out the all equals charter, there's a, there's a button there to express interest and it automatically gives you everything you need to set up a meeting with me directly and we can have a chat and we can talk about. What, what you need and what your goals are and how I can help, whether it be through the program or through delivering a talk to your team or providing a consultation or whatever it might be. So we really can like have that conversation. But if that's not a right fit for you, then here's my recommendation. Stop and think about what's causing. Discrimination. What's causing mistreatment? What's causing bullying? What's causing your own ignorance or your lack of knowledge, your lack of education? The answer to that's going to be intersectional systemic oppression. It's going to be the way that our institutions and our social cultural belief systems work together to create common sense, social norms, the way that just the way things are kind of thing. And, it's your job to look at just the way things are and go, do they have to continue to be that way, right? Life's not fair, but how can we make it more fair? Do we need to accept the way that our society is structured or are there opportunities to change things a little bit? And then go do your homework, go read the work of black feminists. Go read the work of, of trans and queer liberation activists and disability activists and the work that they've done to, to liberate marginalized communities historically and see how you can implement that in your day to day life or in your workplace.

Scott: 41:53

Excellent. Thank you. And it's been awesome having you on speaking to you. Like I said, I've learned, I've learned a lot. And when I come to clip this up for a promotion, there's so many little things that I think I can put out, which people will learn from just by those snippets. But if people do want to follow you and learn that little bit more, where's the best social media? What are some of your, points to get the most?

Chistopher: 42:19

Yeah, so definitely follow Manchester Pride, who's on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook, and probably a few others that I'm forgetting, probably TikTok. and, but if you want to follow me, I'd recommend LinkedIn. LinkedIn's the best place, so give me a follow there. My name is Christopher Owen and I work at Manchester Pride, so that's how you can find me. And then do be sure to check out the Manchester Pride website and check out the All Equals Charter page. I'd love to speak to anybody about what your, what your needs and goals are around intersectional LGBTQ plus inclusion and supporting trans liberation. We have a lot of work to do to support our trans and non binary communities right now, and I want to help you get there.

Scott: 42:56

Excellent. Thank you so much, Christopher, for coming on. Thank you at home so much for listening. We'll be back in two weeks, but yeah, once again, Christopher, thank

Chistopher: 43:07

you so much. Thank you so much for having me, Scott. It's been a real delight speaking with you.

43:10

Thank you for listening and I hope that this episode has managed to help you go one way or another. Whether it be helping you yourself or helping you understand what friends may be going through. Feel free to share this episode with friends, family, repost it on your social medias. And obviously if you really enjoyed it, please give us a thumbs up and erase it. It all helps. We'll be back in two weeks. We'll see you then.